Steve Brett interviews Dougald Hine on his new book, At Work in the Ruins - Finding Our Place in the Time of Science, Climate Change, Pandemics & All the Other Emergencies. They discuss his remarkable journey from his focus on the Climate Crisis, to why he's not talking about the Climate Crisis anymore. They go on to talk about the impact of the Dark Mountain Project, the work of Vanessa Machado de Oliveira, and how "the end of the world as we know it is not the end of the world full stop. The end of the world as we know it is also the end of a way of knowing the world.” For further references recommended by Dougald, please note, The Myth of Modernity by Michael Greer, and A Small Farm Future by Chris Smaje.